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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 501 over the 500 mark

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here we go let's see what snakes huh

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1,000 yes we'll get to that presently

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mm-hmm 501 for the 27th of May 2018

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Richard Saunders here with you from

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Sydney Australia on a very nice-looking

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day outside I'm a little bit a little

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bit tired had a late shift last night

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doing some research work for the New

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South Wales government at the vivid

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festival of lights in Sydney we have

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thousands and thousands of people

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crowded downtown to look at light

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displays and feel very late and it's

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quite an event coming up on this week's

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show where you're getting to interview

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an old friend of mine Sharon Hill Sharon

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Hill who unfurl recently was doing

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doubtful news still doing lots of

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skeptical stuff and Sharon Hill is

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coming to Australia to take part in

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Paracon coming up next month and she'll

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also be visiting Melbourne all the

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details coming up with Sharon Hill at

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the top of the show following that we

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have a report or a plea a call for help

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from choice magazine who are fighting

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the good fight when it comes to

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regulation concerning packaging on

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medicine how should it be labeled what

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claims can it make what claims should it

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make or should not make and how you if

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you're in Australia can help with this

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choice campaign then to round off the

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show the return of the cast's files with

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dr. Cassandra Perryman she's going to be

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looking at what is truth or more

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importantly why do people hang on to

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lies or why do people keep believing

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things that are the monster bleah untrue

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or you know I think I can you get the

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idea it's always a psychological

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adventure with dr. Cassandra Perryman

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and that's coming up to wrap up the show

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now folks is a little reward to myself

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after the last show 500 went out to the

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way

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in world I took a few days off and

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visited my friend Jim Wilshire he's this

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man

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welcome to the skeptic Zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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and he lives on a little property little

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farmhouse near the city of Aubry in New

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South Wales along the beautiful Murray

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River and what a treat it is to relax

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down there on a farm for a few days

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after five hundred episodes I think I

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deserved a few days to get myself

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together thanks Jim I hope to see you

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again a bit later on in the year and

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thank you to all the people who send in

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messages of congratulations on Facebook

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and in person and on Twitter and

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everywhere else for the sceptic zone

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reaching me 500 episode milestone mark

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stay tuned at the end of the show for

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more messages from me but now it's time

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for me to run downstairs and have some

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lemon tea Oh feeling still a little bit

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tired after last night it was a very

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late night and I'm up early this morning

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to record the introduction for the show

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before before the flight path or the

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flight corridor which goes over the

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studios opens up for Sydney Airport

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because then every three or four minutes

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a whacking great jumbo jet or her a380

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or whatever comes over but while I enjoy

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my lemon tea I might have lemon and

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ginger tea I hope you enjoy the skeptic

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Sam

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[Music]

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and joining me now all the way from

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Harrisburg Pennsylvania I have not

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visited Harrisburg Pennsylvania but if I

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do I'd certainly call on Sharon Hill

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hello Sharon hi Richard it's good to

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talk to you yes it's been a while since

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we've had a chat normally we I have the

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pleasure of bumping into you at

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something like the amazing meeting or

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various conventions but not not recently

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I don't think what is what as Sharon

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Hill been up to and I understand that

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you're not concentrating on doubtful

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news at the moment that's right we sort

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of wrapped that up maybe it ran its

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course maybe the whole fake news thing

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just sort of overwhelmed everybody and I

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decided to move on to a couple new

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things and I finished a new book my

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first book called scientifical Americans

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yeah and it's about the culture of

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amateur paranormal investigators so it's

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about how sort of like science and how

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they understand science how they try to

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use science so it's more lit more about

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the public understanding of science but

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focusing in on those paranormal

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researchers and what they do yeah and

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I've also started a new website called

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spooky geology dumb comm yeah and yeah

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we could talk about that

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and just been blogging on my own and

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reading lots of books and listening to

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podcasts and reading lots of magazines

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that's that's what I like to do that's

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it that doesn't sound too bad at all now

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let's have a chat about the book is that

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available right now yes absolutely mad

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at the very very end of last year and

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you know you can look it up on Amazon's

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scientifical Americans sort of a play on

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scientific American's because what I saw

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these people doing was not quite science

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it was sort of scientifical sciency

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stuff

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yes well look folks I will

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to the the link there to Sharon's book

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on the on this week's show notes but

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let's just chat about this for a little

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while Sharon because I find this a very

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fascinating topic and I have been on

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more than my fair share of ghost

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investigations with the paranormal crew

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right with their black t-shirts which

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they seem to like or their camouflage

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Agia lovely people by the way but we may

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hide a nine in fact and our friend

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ilithyia Dean we went for a night here

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in Sydney in the fields of Mars Cemetery

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where all sorts of spooky things didn't

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really happen but they had no end of

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gadgets and gizmos and all sorts of

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things that made lights and noises right

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right that's part of the whole science

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II thing they're sort of conjuring this

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image of scientific authority with the

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gadgets and with this sense of being

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systematic and and taking collecting

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data and getting evidence and and using

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a lot of jargon as well as the gadgets

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and these are the sort of ways that they

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conjure that scientific authority and

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the public kind of falls for it they

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they tend to see them as some sort of

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paranormal experts and professionals and

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that's kind of unfortunate but it does

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show that these people are kind of

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trying to use science they're just

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falling short so I in the book I talk

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about not only ghost hunters but also

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cryptozoologist and ufologists who sort

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of do the same thing in a different way

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each each of the fields is slightly

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different and I talk about how science

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has sort of looked at these fields

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already and discovered that there isn't

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really anything there to investigate so

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when the scientists left the public is

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still really interested in this and the

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amateurs filled that void and now that

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if you think you've seen a Bigfoot or if

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you've spotted a UFO or if you think

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your house is haunted you call on these

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amateur investigators and they come

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right over now I don't want I'm not

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trying to be funny here well not

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necessarily but if folks just can

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visualize maybe a scene from

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Ghostbusters where the

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the heroes strolling through the haunted

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location and they're looking at their

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gadgets in their arms and lights are

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flashing well it's it's not too far

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removed from that and I'm not trying to

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descend it up but just in reality that's

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what is the sort of thing again yeah I'd

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hate to say it but it's true that

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Ghostbusters has actually influenced a

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couple people looks really cool and have

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you come across these wonderful devices

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now what were they called I think it was

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called a spirit box which is a machine

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if we thinking about the same machine

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which rapidly scans am frequencies no

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chitraju like that then if it comes

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across a word it plays the word then

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moves on to the next frequency right you

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get those little snippets of sound and

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then your brain sort of puts them

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together and it feels like it makes

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sense it feels like something ethereal

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is speaking to you yeah there's a lot of

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pareidolia involved in in ghost hunting

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in particular that in all their data

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they see something that isn't really

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there so they sort of imprint their in

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their entire worldview on it and they

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get something out of it where the rest

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of us are like I don't see it I've had

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people I've had people send me EVPs

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electronic voice phenomenon you know

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that they record mm-hmm if they don't

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hear it when they record it but then

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they hear it afterwards I sort of like

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clicks and glitches and stuff but they

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hear words and I've had people send me

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these EVPs and says these is absolutely

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crystal clear and what I'll do is I'll

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just put my hand over the the YouTube

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clip which has the speech at the bottom

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translated and I'll try and listen to

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what it is and I can never make it out

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yeah now just for the benefit of

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listeners it may be new to the skeptical

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worlds and all this sort of thing can

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you give a brief overview of what

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pareidolia is right people have this

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tendency to see particular patterns in

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noise we have a particular tendency to

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see faces and things like trees and

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rocks and

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and inanimate objects and when it in the

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term pareidolia means that you are

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seeing a figure you're you're making

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sense of something that is isn't really

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what you think it is but your brain is

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sort of filling in the gaps and making

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it look like a face or an animal or a

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Bigfoot or in the case of sound it's

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also doing the same thing it's filling

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in those gaps and it's trying to match

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your brain is trying to match up with

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patterns that it already knows and it's

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just a human trait and it serves us

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pretty well especially if we're out in a

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dangerous situation and we encounter

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some sound or visual that could signal

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danger it's a good thing to have but of

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course in our society today we kind of

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go overboard with it we are so so much

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stimulus around us and we tend to see

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patterns in noise that aren't really

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there yes that's so that's a very good

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explanation Sharon that's exactly what

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it is and as it happens folks I've got

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an example here of this thing we were

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discussing the spirit box which involves

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what we call audio pareidolia where you

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hear random sounds and your brain tries

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to make sense of them I have a listen to

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this

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[Laughter]

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so there you go that was a spirit box on

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a ghost investigation a weird sort of

275
00:12:52,820 --> 00:12:48,180
sound the human mind is is fascinating

276
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on many levels Sharon but in our line we

277
00:12:58,630 --> 00:12:55,160
certainly see it put to work don't we

278
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right right like I said these people are

279
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:01,890
very genuine they're passionate about

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what they do and they're sort of

281
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:07,290
committed to the idea that the

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paranormal is out there and their intent

283
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:12,660
on finding it yeah that I I think you're

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right and the ones I've met not only is

285
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it for them a social group they belong

286
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:20,880
to of like-minded people which we all do

287
00:13:24,740 --> 00:13:23,279
which is very important for them you

288
00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:24,750
know we've evolved that way quite

289
00:13:28,850 --> 00:13:27,690
frankly but they feel they're doing

290
00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:28,860
something very important they're

291
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:30,870
actually they are are actually

292
00:13:35,329 --> 00:13:32,850
contacting spirits or clearing out

293
00:13:37,850 --> 00:13:35,339
things or this is making new discoveries

294
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:37,860
for science so I to them it gives them a

295
00:13:42,650 --> 00:13:39,930
very important sense of being I think

296
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very true and that I do discuss that in

297
00:13:45,019 --> 00:13:44,459
the book it's part becomes part of their

298
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:45,029
identity

299
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:47,040
it's how they identify with other people

300
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and how they interact with the rest of

301
00:13:53,329 --> 00:13:51,720
the world and it it makes them feel very

302
00:13:55,970 --> 00:13:53,339
special and I think that's really

303
00:13:58,430 --> 00:13:55,980
understandable and I like to converse

304
00:14:00,800 --> 00:13:58,440
with them I like to talk to them I hope

305
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:00,810
that maybe just these types of exchanges

306
00:14:08,090 --> 00:14:05,850
between us could be a way to help foster

307
00:14:11,329 --> 00:14:08,100
understanding between the groups yeah

308
00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:11,339
and and and again I I really appreciate

309
00:14:16,020 --> 00:14:13,710
the fact that you've you

310
00:14:17,870 --> 00:14:16,030
acknowledge that this is important to

311
00:14:20,820 --> 00:14:17,880
them you know they're just acting like

312
00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:20,830
like we all do from time to time you

313
00:14:25,050 --> 00:14:22,510
know we glad to onto something which is

314
00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:25,060
important to us and and we have that

315
00:14:29,490 --> 00:14:27,910
social bonding so I can't wait you're

316
00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:29,500
very kindly sending me a copy of the

317
00:14:33,830 --> 00:14:31,600
book which I will read with with glee

318
00:14:36,750 --> 00:14:33,840
because I find these groups only

319
00:14:38,220 --> 00:14:36,760
endlessly fascinating and you often come

320
00:14:41,850 --> 00:14:38,230
across them

321
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:41,860
when I do things like mind/body/spirit

322
00:14:45,390 --> 00:14:43,510
conventions and things right visit

323
00:14:47,850 --> 00:14:45,400
there'll be a table or two tables of the

324
00:14:49,890 --> 00:14:47,860
the so-and-so Ghost Hunters group or the

325
00:14:51,450 --> 00:14:49,900
paranormal investigations unit or the

326
00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:51,460
ghost of that you know that they give

327
00:14:56,820 --> 00:14:53,710
themselves these these names too right

328
00:14:58,350 --> 00:14:56,830
that's part of the authority they use

329
00:15:01,500 --> 00:14:58,360
they give themselves important names

330
00:15:04,050 --> 00:15:01,510
acronyms titles and makes them sound

331
00:15:06,540 --> 00:15:04,060
very credible it really does now what's

332
00:15:08,910 --> 00:15:06,550
this about geology well you know I am a

333
00:15:11,190 --> 00:15:08,920
geologist and I figured I probably

334
00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:11,200
should talk a little bit about geology

335
00:15:17,670 --> 00:15:14,320
in relation to paranormal topics because

336
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:17,680
the two interact and they interact and

337
00:15:21,810 --> 00:15:19,330
it's sort of an interesting way I mean

338
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:21,820
spookiness about geology I can think of

339
00:15:29,250 --> 00:15:26,370
a lot of topics that cover ideas about

340
00:15:32,990 --> 00:15:29,260
places and phenomena chiral phenomenon

341
00:15:35,540 --> 00:15:33,000
that people sometimes believe have

342
00:15:39,660 --> 00:15:35,550
magical or mystical or supernatural

343
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:39,670
causes but instead they may have actual

344
00:15:45,180 --> 00:15:43,330
physical geological causes so I decided

345
00:15:47,220 --> 00:15:45,190
to start a website and start researching

346
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:47,230
these topics and see what I could find

347
00:15:53,370 --> 00:15:51,040
so what I talked about on this site are

348
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:53,380
things like alternative geological

349
00:15:57,780 --> 00:15:55,330
explanations so like the Flat Earth

350
00:16:00,260 --> 00:15:57,790
which involves not only sometimes

351
00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:00,270
religious beliefs but also

352
00:16:05,850 --> 00:16:03,360
conspiratorial beliefs as well and

353
00:16:07,650 --> 00:16:05,860
things like earth energies people think

354
00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:07,660
that the earth has some sort of energy

355
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:10,150
lines so that's connected to ideas of

356
00:16:16,110 --> 00:16:13,330
ghost lights such as your the minmin

357
00:16:19,260 --> 00:16:16,120
lights in in Queensland oh yes and of

358
00:16:21,630 --> 00:16:19,270
course dowsing is said to be following

359
00:16:23,610 --> 00:16:21,640
lines of energy in the earth and you

360
00:16:26,980 --> 00:16:23,620
have these energy vortexes where you can

361
00:16:28,929 --> 00:16:26,990
have these spiritual experiences

362
00:16:32,169 --> 00:16:28,939
there's also places that that have

363
00:16:34,540 --> 00:16:32,179
so-called mystical powers like Delphi in

364
00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:34,550
Greece or LaRue

365
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:37,670
in Australia which is a very spiritual

366
00:16:42,369 --> 00:16:39,170
place and people feel that they have

367
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:42,379
these these interesting experiences

368
00:16:46,540 --> 00:16:44,240
there absolutely I also talked about

369
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:46,550
things like so-called gates to the

370
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:48,050
underworld or people think that they

371
00:16:53,139 --> 00:16:49,610
could actually enter the underworld or

372
00:16:56,439 --> 00:16:53,149
gates to hell and a curious recent

373
00:16:58,629 --> 00:16:56,449
example that I just wrote about was the

374
00:17:00,999 --> 00:16:58,639
eruptions in Hawaii that are going on

375
00:17:04,329 --> 00:17:01,009
right now and they see is is the

376
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:04,339
prompting of people to start making

377
00:17:10,569 --> 00:17:07,610
gifts to give to the goddess Pele to try

378
00:17:13,029 --> 00:17:10,579
to stop the eruptions and that's an

379
00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:13,039
interesting spiritual and mythical

380
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:15,289
aspect to a very natural geologic

381
00:17:18,250 --> 00:17:16,610
phenomenon so those are the kind of

382
00:17:21,370 --> 00:17:18,260
things that I talk about well that's

383
00:17:24,220 --> 00:17:21,380
more there than I would have thought but

384
00:17:25,750 --> 00:17:24,230
you're absolutely right it does tie in a

385
00:17:28,449 --> 00:17:25,760
lot with the paranormal when we think of

386
00:17:31,630 --> 00:17:28,459
what they call the the ley lines for

387
00:17:33,750 --> 00:17:31,640
example right earth energies earase I've

388
00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:33,760
heard all this sort of thing and

389
00:17:39,639 --> 00:17:36,080
certainly around the world

390
00:17:41,769 --> 00:17:39,649
things like uluru ayres rock have strong

391
00:17:44,380 --> 00:17:41,779
spiritual connections to people so yeah

392
00:17:45,909 --> 00:17:44,390
what a fascinating topic I don't think

393
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:45,919
I'll ever run out of topics for that

394
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:48,770
because I I think that I've made my list

395
00:17:56,289 --> 00:17:52,880
complete and I just find more every day

396
00:17:57,419 --> 00:17:56,299
right now I'm working on a long piece it

397
00:18:00,460 --> 00:17:57,429
turned out to be longer than I thought

398
00:18:03,610 --> 00:18:00,470
about places with the devil in their

399
00:18:07,029 --> 00:18:03,620
name so devil places Devils Tower

400
00:18:09,940 --> 00:18:07,039
Devil's kitchen Devil's Den and why do

401
00:18:11,409 --> 00:18:09,950
they have those names so I I start to

402
00:18:12,669 --> 00:18:11,419
talk about that so that's what I'm

403
00:18:15,730 --> 00:18:12,679
working on right now that'll be my next

404
00:18:19,149 --> 00:18:15,740
post on the site that's interesting when

405
00:18:22,930 --> 00:18:19,159
I was a little boy growing up in a small

406
00:18:24,940 --> 00:18:22,940
country town there was a tiny River a

407
00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:24,950
couple of miles out of town where I used

408
00:18:29,260 --> 00:18:26,960
to go and my bike and we'd fish at

409
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:29,270
devil's elbow which was just a bending

410
00:18:38,260 --> 00:18:35,200
right bend in the river I never knew why

411
00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:38,270
usually that the nasty bends are called

412
00:18:39,970 --> 00:18:38,990
Devil's elbow

413
00:18:47,770 --> 00:18:39,980
there's also Devils

414
00:18:49,530 --> 00:18:47,780
wind pipe and Devil's Backbone there

415
00:18:54,909 --> 00:18:49,540
must be many of them around the world

416
00:18:57,730 --> 00:18:54,919
too many I discovered we'll have to look

417
00:19:00,640 --> 00:18:57,740
some up now the exciting news for Sydney

418
00:19:02,770 --> 00:19:00,650
listeners and the terrible news for me

419
00:19:06,340 --> 00:19:02,780
is because I won't be here and I'm

420
00:19:08,260 --> 00:19:06,350
really regretting that because I I do so

421
00:19:09,909 --> 00:19:08,270
like to catch up with you however the

422
00:19:13,990 --> 00:19:09,919
good news for Sydney listeners is you're

423
00:19:17,049 --> 00:19:14,000
coming to town for Paracon Australia

424
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:17,059
which is on the weekend of the 16th of

425
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:19,610
June and you're going to be talking

426
00:19:23,860 --> 00:19:21,890
that's at the manly quarantine station

427
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:23,870
folks for those Sydney listeners that

428
00:19:28,690 --> 00:19:26,570
looks to be an exciting time I've spoken

429
00:19:30,460 --> 00:19:28,700
at this conference myself before a

430
00:19:31,690 --> 00:19:30,470
couple of years back I was one of the

431
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:31,700
guest speakers and I had a wonderful

432
00:19:35,230 --> 00:19:33,890
time with great people I saw all sorts

433
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:35,240
of all sorts of interesting things

434
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:37,490
especially ghost hunters and I bought a

435
00:19:42,730 --> 00:19:40,250
ghost laser I must admit I bought a

436
00:19:43,930 --> 00:19:42,740
laser which is designed to detect ghosts

437
00:19:46,419 --> 00:19:43,940
which I have which i think is really

438
00:19:48,669 --> 00:19:46,429
great what can people expect when you

439
00:19:52,780 --> 00:19:48,679
come out cheran well I'm really excited

440
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:52,790
that the first day I'm giving a talk in

441
00:19:56,530 --> 00:19:54,530
the morning about misadventures and

442
00:19:58,240 --> 00:19:56,540
paranormal investigation so it does so

443
00:20:00,600 --> 00:19:58,250
to focus on the things that I talk about

444
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:00,610
in the book but it also includes some

445
00:20:05,260 --> 00:20:02,720
well what I'm trying to do is just

446
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:05,270
develop a rapport with with this crowd

447
00:20:10,270 --> 00:20:07,970
which is a they're all most mostly going

448
00:20:11,890 --> 00:20:10,280
to be paranormal investigators so it's

449
00:20:13,630 --> 00:20:11,900
very different crowd that I normally

450
00:20:15,909 --> 00:20:13,640
speak to so I want to make that

451
00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:15,919
connection and I want to be able to have

452
00:20:20,590 --> 00:20:18,559
these discussions with them and and sort

453
00:20:21,940 --> 00:20:20,600
of figure out what they're all about and

454
00:20:23,770 --> 00:20:21,950
maybe they could figure out what I'm all

455
00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:23,780
about and we can meet at some level and

456
00:20:29,159 --> 00:20:26,030
have some some cool discussions so I'm

457
00:20:32,909 --> 00:20:29,169
really looking forward to that and then

458
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:32,919
the second day I'm going to be giving a

459
00:20:41,049 --> 00:20:37,490
lunch talk on spooky geology and we're

460
00:20:42,909 --> 00:20:41,059
also doing a panel me and Paul cropper

461
00:20:45,130 --> 00:20:42,919
and Toni Healy we're doing a panel about

462
00:20:48,130 --> 00:20:45,140
the Yowie so I'm really excited about

463
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:48,140
that maybe I should change my plans I'm

464
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:50,330
so sorry I won't be there I'm going to

465
00:20:56,770 --> 00:20:52,910
send me not our reporter may not

466
00:20:58,690 --> 00:20:56,780
yes the goose of the skeptics and he

467
00:21:01,330 --> 00:20:58,700
should be there and I guess again I'm

468
00:21:03,820 --> 00:21:01,340
very jealous and unfortunately I won't

469
00:21:07,290 --> 00:21:03,830
be there I really want if you want to

470
00:21:10,030 --> 00:21:07,300
see Sharon he'll live in Australia and

471
00:21:11,470 --> 00:21:10,040
it's worth really she's worth scenes

472
00:21:13,050 --> 00:21:11,480
he's a great speaker I've had the

473
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:13,060
pleasure of seeing her speak many times

474
00:21:18,670 --> 00:21:16,850
para con Australia calm is the website

475
00:21:20,380 --> 00:21:18,680
to go to for more information to get

476
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:20,390
your tickets and I'll certainly link to

477
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:22,010
that in the show notes

478
00:21:28,420 --> 00:21:24,890
let me just add for your Melbourne

479
00:21:30,970 --> 00:21:28,430
listeners who I will be making a side

480
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:30,980
trip to Melbourne for the Australian

481
00:21:37,210 --> 00:21:33,890
skeptics in Victoria meeting on Monday

482
00:21:38,830 --> 00:21:37,220
the 18th of June that's great great

483
00:21:40,990 --> 00:21:38,840
Melbourne listeners there you are you

484
00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:41,000
don't have to buy your plane tickets to

485
00:21:45,580 --> 00:21:43,310
Sydney after all this yeah Sharon Hill

486
00:21:47,290 --> 00:21:45,590
and the Vic skeptics are a wonderful

487
00:21:50,230 --> 00:21:47,300
group of people I've had the pleasure of

488
00:21:52,690 --> 00:21:50,240
speaking down there myself quite a few

489
00:21:54,310 --> 00:21:52,700
times and I again I will link to that on

490
00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:54,320
the show notes so there you are Sydney

491
00:21:58,360 --> 00:21:56,110
and Melbourne you're in for a treat

492
00:22:00,100 --> 00:21:58,370
change your plans you know if you're

493
00:22:02,530 --> 00:22:00,110
getting married that day forget about it

494
00:22:04,390 --> 00:22:02,540
just cancel the wedding it's worth it to

495
00:22:07,090 --> 00:22:04,400
see Sharon Hill Sharon Hill all the way

496
00:22:09,130 --> 00:22:07,100
from Harrisburg in Pennsylvania thank

497
00:22:11,350 --> 00:22:09,140
you very much for being on the skipping

498
00:22:12,610 --> 00:22:11,360
zone oh you're very welcome was

499
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:12,620
wonderful talk to you Richard

500
00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:27,450
[Music]

501
00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:34,330
so yes simply hey Sal you guys guys I

502
00:22:38,470 --> 00:22:36,470
just had the most amazing experience

503
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:38,480
what experience under us under heavy

504
00:22:42,250 --> 00:22:40,130
been to the pub children not to hang out

505
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:42,260
with mash you know she was blessed by

506
00:22:47,530 --> 00:22:44,690
peter Popoff no Jelena I'm not talking

507
00:22:49,510 --> 00:22:47,540
about psychics it was a really SP

508
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:49,520
experience now you have been to the pub

509
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:51,050
either that or you've been smoking

510
00:22:54,250 --> 00:22:51,650
something

511
00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:54,260
no punters the ESB is the European

512
00:22:58,630 --> 00:22:56,480
sceptics podcast it's the most amazing

513
00:23:00,370 --> 00:22:58,640
thing you get to know so much about

514
00:23:03,370 --> 00:23:00,380
sceptics and their activities across

515
00:23:05,140 --> 00:23:03,380
Europe you know events hot topics and

516
00:23:07,390 --> 00:23:05,150
interviews with lots of interesting

517
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:07,400
people oh wow cool by the way punters

518
00:23:11,350 --> 00:23:08,690
you just come into the false dichotomy

519
00:23:13,060 --> 00:23:11,360
fallacy I guess that means I'm really

520
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:13,070
wrong yep

521
00:23:16,510 --> 00:23:14,570
then you can even learn about those

522
00:23:19,030 --> 00:23:16,520
fallacies in the show and hear about

523
00:23:21,610 --> 00:23:19,040
people spreading silly ideas you should

524
00:23:24,550 --> 00:23:21,620
really check it out it's the ESP the

525
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:24,560
European sceptics podcast it's on never

526
00:23:29,770 --> 00:23:27,410
weak alright so where can I get this is

527
00:23:32,770 --> 00:23:29,780
the experience it sounds good you can go

528
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:32,780
online at the ESP door to you follow it

529
00:23:39,130 --> 00:23:36,170
on twitter at es podcast underscore EU

530
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:39,140
or like the podcast and Facebook oh and

531
00:23:45,610 --> 00:23:40,850
you can also contact the show by sending

532
00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:45,620
them an email to info at the ESPE you

533
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:48,110
and if you want to subscribe do a quick

534
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:50,810
search for the European skeptic podcast

535
00:24:02,460 --> 00:23:57,170
on soundcloud iTunes or stitcher I don't

536
00:24:16,919 --> 00:24:13,069
[Music]

537
00:24:21,389 --> 00:24:16,929
from our friends at choice magazine put

538
00:24:23,129 --> 00:24:21,399
fact over fiction proposed laws could

539
00:24:25,879 --> 00:24:23,139
see dangerous and potentially misleading

540
00:24:27,959 --> 00:24:25,889
claims on therapeutic goods especially

541
00:24:30,949 --> 00:24:27,969
complementary and alternative medicines

542
00:24:33,419 --> 00:24:30,959
like herbal and homeopathic treatments

543
00:24:35,519 --> 00:24:33,429
it means that products can claim to

544
00:24:37,859 --> 00:24:35,529
decrease the time it takes to fall

545
00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:37,869
asleep or help maintain healthy heart

546
00:24:49,589 --> 00:24:40,089
function without having scientific

547
00:24:52,409 --> 00:24:49,599
evidence to back up their claims to get

548
00:24:55,649 --> 00:24:52,419
our leaders attention we've produced our

549
00:24:57,509 --> 00:24:55,659
own vitamin bottles and labeled them

550
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:57,519
with the claims vitamin companies are

551
00:25:02,519 --> 00:24:59,679
able to get away with under the proposed

552
00:25:05,369 --> 00:25:02,529
laws if this legislation isn't stopped

553
00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:05,379
by the 25th of June 2018 products like

554
00:25:09,959 --> 00:25:07,089
these will be allowed to be sold in

555
00:25:13,379 --> 00:25:09,969
chemists and supermarkets tell senators

556
00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:13,389
to knock back these laws so Australians

557
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:15,609
looking for vitamins and supplements can

558
00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:18,369
separate fact from fiction we photograph

559
00:25:22,709 --> 00:25:20,529
accompanying the website which I shall

560
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:22,719
link to in the show notes as medicine

561
00:25:31,319 --> 00:25:26,799
bottles labeled bio essential heart

562
00:25:31,979 --> 00:25:31,329
health sleep well liver detox how did we

563
00:25:35,879 --> 00:25:31,989
get here

564
00:25:38,759 --> 00:25:35,889
these laws arose from a 2015 review into

565
00:25:41,219 --> 00:25:38,769
medicines and medical devices the review

566
00:25:44,399 --> 00:25:41,229
recommended that when making product

567
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:44,409
claims therapeutic goods companies must

568
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:46,570
choose from a list of pre-approved

569
00:25:51,569 --> 00:25:49,570
claims it also recommended that there

570
00:25:54,329 --> 00:25:51,579
needed to be a disclaimer alongside

571
00:25:57,389 --> 00:25:54,339
claims to communicate to consumers that

572
00:26:00,359 --> 00:25:57,399
the efficacy of the product had not been

573
00:26:02,909 --> 00:26:00,369
independently assessed and/or is based

574
00:26:04,769 --> 00:26:02,919
on traditional use while the federal

575
00:26:07,619 --> 00:26:04,779
government agreed to this recommendation

576
00:26:10,859 --> 00:26:07,629
it was not implemented in the way it was

577
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:10,869
envisaged rather than a concise list of

578
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:13,690
claims backed by scientific evidence the

579
00:26:19,530 --> 00:26:15,130
list is long

580
00:26:23,010 --> 00:26:19,540
and contains 1017 claims for companies

581
00:26:24,690 --> 00:26:23,020
to use even more worryingly only a

582
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:24,700
hundred and forty of the claims are

583
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:27,250
backed by scientific evidence for the

584
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:30,970
remaining 879 claims evidence of quote

585
00:26:36,660 --> 00:26:33,610
traditional and quote use is sufficient

586
00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:36,670
that is used for more than three

587
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:39,280
generations in an alternative medical

588
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:42,610
tradition such as Chinese medicine au

589
00:26:48,870 --> 00:26:46,090
vada or homeopathy what's in the bottles

590
00:26:52,260 --> 00:26:48,880
the vitamin bottles we've handed out are

591
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:52,270
full of these sugary lollies urging

592
00:26:58,280 --> 00:26:55,810
senators to stop sour claims and support

593
00:27:01,620 --> 00:26:58,290
scientific evidence in therapeutic goods

594
00:27:04,020 --> 00:27:01,630
can the industry be trusted loose

595
00:27:06,780 --> 00:27:04,030
regulation on product claims on

596
00:27:10,260 --> 00:27:06,790
therapeutic goods only serves to benefit

597
00:27:14,010 --> 00:27:10,270
industry players in 2013 Swiss errs

598
00:27:16,620 --> 00:27:14,020
quote LT boost appetite suppressant

599
00:27:19,470 --> 00:27:16,630
unquote was delisted by the Therapeutic

600
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:19,480
Goods Administration TGA due to quote

601
00:27:23,940 --> 00:27:21,370
insufficient evidence to support the

602
00:27:26,580 --> 00:27:23,950
claims on the product and quote within

603
00:27:29,460 --> 00:27:26,590
the same year Swiss then re listed the

604
00:27:33,030 --> 00:27:29,470
exact same product changing the label to

605
00:27:35,580 --> 00:27:33,040
include a quote traditional use in quote

606
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:35,590
qualifier to evade the requirements that

607
00:27:38,730 --> 00:27:37,930
claims are to be based on scientific

608
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:38,740
evidence

609
00:27:44,250 --> 00:27:42,250
what does choice want Australia is a

610
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:44,260
multicultural country and it is

611
00:27:48,690 --> 00:27:46,330
appropriate that we respect and allow

612
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:48,700
access to alternative medical traditions

613
00:27:52,740 --> 00:27:51,250
however it is also important that

614
00:27:55,470 --> 00:27:52,750
Australians are protected from

615
00:27:57,690 --> 00:27:55,480
misleading claims for consumers to be

616
00:27:59,700 --> 00:27:57,700
able to make an informed choice about

617
00:28:02,250 --> 00:27:59,710
complementary medicines products

618
00:28:05,250 --> 00:28:02,260
displaying traditional use indications

619
00:28:07,470 --> 00:28:05,260
should be also required to display a

620
00:28:10,890 --> 00:28:07,480
prominent disclaimer on the label to the

621
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:10,900
effect of quote this products

622
00:28:15,090 --> 00:28:12,850
traditional claims are based on

623
00:28:17,430 --> 00:28:15,100
alternative health practices that are

624
00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:17,440
not accepted by most modern medical

625
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:19,840
experts there is no good scientific

626
00:28:25,410 --> 00:28:22,240
evidence that this product works and

627
00:28:27,690 --> 00:28:25,420
quote this is in line with disclaimers

628
00:28:28,980 --> 00:28:27,700
used by the United States Federal Trade

629
00:28:31,590 --> 00:28:28,990
Commission for

630
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:31,600
homeopathic products keep therapeutic

631
00:28:35,940 --> 00:28:33,730
claims honest tell senators to knock

632
00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:35,950
back these proposed laws so that

633
00:28:39,930 --> 00:28:38,320
Australians looking for vitamins and

634
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:39,940
supplements can separate fact from

635
00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:43,090
fiction this form and the form is right

636
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:45,760
here on the website will let you email

637
00:28:51,540 --> 00:28:48,450
the senators in your state or territory

638
00:29:01,350 --> 00:28:51,550
put your details below and click email

639
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:01,360
my senators as the message for

640
00:29:08,010 --> 00:29:05,650
Australian listeners skeptic zone TV is

641
00:29:09,930 --> 00:29:08,020
the website where I will include in this

642
00:29:12,210 --> 00:29:09,940
week's show notes a link to this page

643
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:12,220
put out by choice magazine and you can

644
00:29:17,220 --> 00:29:15,010
see the the lollies the candy they've

645
00:29:20,930 --> 00:29:17,230
produced with these extravagant health

646
00:29:40,670 --> 00:29:20,940
claims and you can email your senator

647
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:42,980
hey Richard dr. Paul II hear your

648
00:29:48,170 --> 00:29:45,690
favorite legal drug deal I just wanted

649
00:29:51,860 --> 00:29:48,180
to say B congratulations from reaching

650
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:51,870
500 episodes it's really no wonder that

651
00:29:57,470 --> 00:29:55,130
you're Australia's top skeptical icon

652
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:57,480
and I hope you came rocking our

653
00:30:01,540 --> 00:29:59,760
skeptical minds for at least another 500

654
00:30:15,460 --> 00:30:01,550
episodes

655
00:30:33,620 --> 00:30:23,930
the cast files with dr. Cassandra

656
00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:33,630
Perryman hello and welcome back to the

657
00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:36,960
long overdue next episode of the cast

658
00:30:43,490 --> 00:30:40,110
files with dr. Cassandra Perryman today

659
00:30:54,110 --> 00:30:43,500
we're gonna ask why do people believe in

660
00:30:56,540 --> 00:30:54,120
obvious lies today we're not going to

661
00:30:58,820 --> 00:30:56,550
talk about just any lies we're going to

662
00:31:00,650 --> 00:30:58,830
specifically talk about the lies told

663
00:31:03,620 --> 00:31:00,660
about the current President of the

664
00:31:07,130 --> 00:31:03,630
United States yes we're gonna have a

665
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:07,140
California and discuss Trump now voting

666
00:31:11,540 --> 00:31:10,050
tendencies a hide it's not hard to see

667
00:31:13,790 --> 00:31:11,550
that the man has been called out again

668
00:31:17,270 --> 00:31:13,800
again for telling inaccuracies of all

669
00:31:20,650 --> 00:31:17,280
sorts and severity zhh why then does he

670
00:31:23,750 --> 00:31:20,660
still have a stable 30 to 40% approval

671
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:23,760
why on earth to his constituents perhaps

672
00:31:31,250 --> 00:31:26,610
better called followers still believe in

673
00:31:32,930 --> 00:31:31,260
and still believe him first we need to

674
00:31:35,210 --> 00:31:32,940
acknowledge that the US has entered an

675
00:31:37,700 --> 00:31:35,220
era of populism and potentially

676
00:31:39,470 --> 00:31:37,710
oligarchy this isn't the first time

677
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:39,480
we've done it but this is perhaps the

678
00:31:44,300 --> 00:31:42,210
most detrimental to our culture the

679
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:44,310
Gilded Age was also an era of populism

680
00:31:49,460 --> 00:31:47,090
and William Jennings Bryan also

681
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:49,470
immortalized as the lion in The Wizard

682
00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:53,130
of Oz was populism master he was a

683
00:31:58,010 --> 00:31:55,710
phenomenal orator and he used the

684
00:32:00,530 --> 00:31:58,020
hallmark of populism he used plain

685
00:32:03,770 --> 00:32:00,540
speech charisma and emotion to dominate

686
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:03,780
his audience as Bryan so famously said

687
00:32:08,330 --> 00:32:05,850
quote this is not a contest between

688
00:32:09,950 --> 00:32:08,340
persons the humblest citizen in all the

689
00:32:11,870 --> 00:32:09,960
land when clad in the armor of a

690
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:11,880
righteous cause is stronger than all the

691
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:14,010
hosts of error I come to you in defense

692
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:15,840
of a cause as holy as the cause of

693
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:20,130
Liberty the cause of humanity now Sarah

694
00:32:23,090 --> 00:32:20,850
Palin

695
00:32:26,210 --> 00:32:23,100
let it later call that humanity Joe the

696
00:32:29,210 --> 00:32:26,220
Plumber and Trump would embrace the term

697
00:32:30,980 --> 00:32:29,220
deplorable which was first famously used

698
00:32:33,950 --> 00:32:30,990
as an insult by Clinton

699
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:33,960
this wasn't Brian's most terrifying

700
00:32:38,990 --> 00:32:36,810
quote though I just need to say I think

701
00:32:41,690 --> 00:32:39,000
it must be quote if we have to either

702
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:41,700
give up religion or education we should

703
00:32:48,470 --> 00:32:45,330
give up education thankfully Brian

704
00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:48,480
didn't win so what though does this have

705
00:32:54,140 --> 00:32:50,910
to do with now well it laid the

706
00:32:57,290 --> 00:32:54,150
groundwork for a second rise in blatant

707
00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:57,300
oration like I said thankfully Brian's

708
00:33:01,850 --> 00:32:59,760
lost his election but the groundwork was

709
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:01,860
laid and honestly it was just a matter

710
00:33:05,890 --> 00:33:03,570
of time before we finally got our

711
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:05,900
populist man behind the curtain

712
00:33:10,820 --> 00:33:08,490
the thing with populist is that they run

713
00:33:13,460 --> 00:33:10,830
a cult of personality they throw out

714
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:13,470
Hollow easy to understand but impossible

715
00:33:19,300 --> 00:33:16,050
to interpret catchphrases it's basically

716
00:33:21,770 --> 00:33:19,310
the astrology of politics like astrology

717
00:33:23,660 --> 00:33:21,780
those little bite-size morsels of

718
00:33:26,030 --> 00:33:23,670
goodness are very appealing to certain

719
00:33:28,130 --> 00:33:26,040
types of people when the quips are

720
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:28,140
racist misogynistic religious and

721
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:30,210
exclusionary you appeal to a very

722
00:33:36,140 --> 00:33:32,640
specific demographic within the United

723
00:33:38,570 --> 00:33:36,150
States namely most diehard Trump

724
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:38,580
supporters now I can get into how it was

725
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:40,410
probably not a matter of blatant racism

726
00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:42,720
I'm not saying Trump supporters are

727
00:33:47,930 --> 00:33:46,080
racist and misogynistic I am saying

728
00:33:51,170 --> 00:33:47,940
though that there is a lot more implicit

729
00:33:53,330 --> 00:33:51,180
bias within that group that is though

730
00:33:57,260 --> 00:33:53,340
unfortunately a talk for another day

731
00:34:00,260 --> 00:33:57,270
for now though just stay with me so what

732
00:34:03,350 --> 00:34:00,270
happens when you call out a populist

733
00:34:04,010 --> 00:34:03,360
leader when say the media says they're

734
00:34:07,220 --> 00:34:04,020
lying

735
00:34:09,260 --> 00:34:07,230
well you just attacked them see the

736
00:34:12,380 --> 00:34:09,270
individuals who loved those populist

737
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:12,390
messages have a world that tends to be

738
00:34:17,390 --> 00:34:15,450
black and white compromises weakness and

739
00:34:18,620 --> 00:34:17,400
if you just stand your ground you can

740
00:34:21,260 --> 00:34:18,630
use the victim card

741
00:34:23,930 --> 00:34:21,270
it's common for populist messages to

742
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:23,940
appeal to this desire to be correct so

743
00:34:27,950 --> 00:34:25,440
that an individual can maintain their

744
00:34:30,410 --> 00:34:27,960
black and white worldview see here's how

745
00:34:32,540 --> 00:34:30,420
you do it you frame something in the

746
00:34:34,139 --> 00:34:32,550
negative for example when talking to

747
00:34:35,730 --> 00:34:34,149
coal miners

748
00:34:38,069 --> 00:34:35,740
of them that the world is against them

749
00:34:40,109 --> 00:34:38,079
and that you're going to save them rant

750
00:34:41,789 --> 00:34:40,119
about how like Brian said they are the

751
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:41,799
backbone of the country and they deserve

752
00:34:45,779 --> 00:34:44,169
better but all those big nasty cities

753
00:34:48,869 --> 00:34:45,789
are against their way of life

754
00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:48,879
now when you fail to deliver what's been

755
00:34:52,859 --> 00:34:51,250
promised you're still right the cities

756
00:34:54,779 --> 00:34:52,869
are still have to get those poor coal

757
00:34:56,789 --> 00:34:54,789
miners but you're the hero for trying

758
00:34:59,579 --> 00:34:56,799
your best even if you didn't try it all

759
00:35:01,620 --> 00:34:59,589
or there was no industry to save this

760
00:35:04,019 --> 00:35:01,630
preserves the individuals ability to

761
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:04,029
believe don't ever just come out and

762
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:05,770
tell the coal miners there industry is

763
00:35:11,250 --> 00:35:07,930
in its dying throes because that doesn't

764
00:35:13,980 --> 00:35:11,260
fit into their worldview too many it's

765
00:35:17,789 --> 00:35:13,990
either go mine or do nothing and

766
00:35:19,980 --> 00:35:17,799
obviously they'd rather mine what

767
00:35:22,859 --> 00:35:19,990
happens then for those few who see the

768
00:35:26,269 --> 00:35:22,869
trap in the message will they have two

769
00:35:28,170 --> 00:35:26,279
choices they can change their view but

770
00:35:30,329 --> 00:35:28,180
remember again though that that's a

771
00:35:32,940 --> 00:35:30,339
compromise that doesn't fit well into a

772
00:35:35,039 --> 00:35:32,950
black and white perspective or they can

773
00:35:37,349 --> 00:35:35,049
justify their reason to continue to

774
00:35:39,660 --> 00:35:37,359
believe this process then is called

775
00:35:42,029 --> 00:35:39,670
cognitive dissonance cognitive

776
00:35:44,430 --> 00:35:42,039
dissonance is the individual state of

777
00:35:48,269 --> 00:35:44,440
having beliefs or attitudes that are at

778
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:48,279
odds with behavior to simplify then in

779
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:50,049
this instance the coal miners have this

780
00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:51,970
firm belief that the Republican Party

781
00:35:56,970 --> 00:35:54,160
will save them but then they have no job

782
00:35:59,010 --> 00:35:56,980
to go to if they'd been saved they would

783
00:36:01,200 --> 00:35:59,020
be at work but since they're not at work

784
00:36:05,250 --> 00:36:01,210
their belief is incongruent with their

785
00:36:07,470 --> 00:36:05,260
behavior so what happens there well you

786
00:36:09,930 --> 00:36:07,480
can have a change in belief but again

787
00:36:12,410 --> 00:36:09,940
that's compromise or you can have a lot

788
00:36:16,490 --> 00:36:12,420
of mental uncomfortable gymnastics

789
00:36:19,410 --> 00:36:16,500
deflection blame anger a lot of anger

790
00:36:22,140 --> 00:36:19,420
anger towards the self and anger towards

791
00:36:23,779 --> 00:36:22,150
others you hear slogans like foreigners

792
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:23,789
are coming to take our jobs or

793
00:36:29,220 --> 00:36:26,970
outsourcing destroys communities

794
00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:29,230
sticking with the coal miner example

795
00:36:34,170 --> 00:36:31,569
imagine now one throws back the curtain

796
00:36:35,730 --> 00:36:34,180
and sees the wizard they take off the

797
00:36:38,220 --> 00:36:35,740
glasses and they see the Emerald City is

798
00:36:40,829 --> 00:36:38,230
white okay there's still two choices

799
00:36:43,620 --> 00:36:40,839
they can just put the glasses back on

800
00:36:45,450 --> 00:36:43,630
and make the city green again or like

801
00:36:47,579 --> 00:36:45,460
Dorothy they can confront the wizard in

802
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:47,589
this instance the coal miner can't

803
00:36:50,999 --> 00:36:49,450
correctly confront the actual wizard but

804
00:36:54,209 --> 00:36:51,009
they can change their perspective of

805
00:36:58,079 --> 00:36:54,219
them another choice though can be to use

806
00:37:00,239 --> 00:36:58,089
the idea of sunk cost basically the more

807
00:37:02,339 --> 00:37:00,249
you invest in our idea the harder it

808
00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:02,349
becomes to abandon it this is a very

809
00:37:07,289 --> 00:37:05,529
common logical fallacy you've spent your

810
00:37:09,329 --> 00:37:07,299
whole life being in a town of coal

811
00:37:11,759 --> 00:37:09,339
miners in an economy based on mining

812
00:37:13,829 --> 00:37:11,769
training to become a miner for right or

813
00:37:16,140 --> 00:37:13,839
wrong at this point you're too invested

814
00:37:18,479 --> 00:37:16,150
in the past to make a different step in

815
00:37:21,329 --> 00:37:18,489
the future it's then easier to believe

816
00:37:23,999 --> 00:37:21,339
in the wizard because you're too deep to

817
00:37:26,519 --> 00:37:24,009
do otherwise now of course I've

818
00:37:28,380 --> 00:37:26,529
simplified things but the reality is

819
00:37:30,209 --> 00:37:28,390
that it's not hard for anyone to fall

820
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:30,219
into the trap become a full-fledged

821
00:37:34,979 --> 00:37:31,930
believer and then stay there

822
00:37:36,779 --> 00:37:34,989
unfortunately the current administration

823
00:37:39,209 --> 00:37:36,789
is well aware of how to keep people in

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00:37:41,670 --> 00:37:39,219
the personality trap you shut down other

825
00:37:43,950 --> 00:37:41,680
sources of information you slowly close

826
00:37:47,609 --> 00:37:43,960
the institution's effect and you hand

827
00:37:50,849 --> 00:37:47,619
out more glasses our current best hope

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00:38:00,760 --> 00:37:50,859
then is it soon more people start seeing

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00:38:00,770 --> 00:38:18,190
[Music]

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00:38:25,310 --> 00:38:22,280
dr. Harriet Hall MD no into thousands as

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00:38:28,430 --> 00:38:25,320
the skeptic a retired family physician

832
00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:28,440
and former Air Force flight surgeon she

833
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:30,510
writes about medicine so-called

834
00:38:36,070 --> 00:38:32,210
complementary and alternative medicine

835
00:38:39,170 --> 00:38:36,080
science quackery and critical thinking

836
00:38:41,420 --> 00:38:39,180
Harriet now has a free course a series

837
00:38:44,780 --> 00:38:41,430
of 10 video lectures on science-based

838
00:38:46,790 --> 00:38:44,790
medicine and alternative medicine the

839
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:46,800
videos and an accompanying course guide

840
00:38:52,850 --> 00:38:48,930
can be found by following the link at

841
00:38:55,390 --> 00:38:52,860
skeptic dot info or by visiting web

842
00:39:00,680 --> 00:38:55,400
brandies org slash

843
00:39:03,110 --> 00:39:00,690
educational - modules dot html' topics

844
00:39:05,780 --> 00:39:03,120
covered in the series are science-based

845
00:39:09,370 --> 00:39:05,790
medicine vs. evidence-based medicine

846
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:09,380
what is Kam chiropractic acupuncture

847
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:12,690
homeopathy naturopathy and herbal

848
00:39:18,170 --> 00:39:15,450
medicine energy medicine miscellaneous

849
00:39:21,170 --> 00:39:18,180
alternatives pitfalls in research and

850
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:21,180
science based medicine in the media and

851
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:24,930
politics Harriette covers each topic in

852
00:39:30,770 --> 00:39:27,510
a matter-of-fact no-nonsense way that

853
00:39:32,410 --> 00:39:30,780
sure to educate and entertain skeptic

854
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:32,420
dot info

855
00:39:56,410 --> 00:39:53,800
thank you for listening to the skeptic

856
00:39:58,240 --> 00:39:56,420
zone now a couple of announcements from

857
00:39:59,980 --> 00:39:58,250
me don't forget the Australian skeptics

858
00:40:01,930 --> 00:39:59,990
National Convention is coming up later

859
00:40:06,250 --> 00:40:01,940
in the year here in Sydney in October

860
00:40:08,980 --> 00:40:06,260
visit www.scosche.com today youth for

861
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:08,990
more details and over the coming months

862
00:40:14,770 --> 00:40:11,410
I will be presenting interviews from

863
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:14,780
some of the speakers in fact only a

864
00:40:18,460 --> 00:40:16,250
couple of weeks ago you would have heard

865
00:40:20,770 --> 00:40:18,470
me interviewing dr. Pamela gay

866
00:40:23,589 --> 00:40:20,780
well more interviews coming up with some

867
00:40:24,849 --> 00:40:23,599
of the speakers that's very exciting I'm

868
00:40:26,710 --> 00:40:24,859
really looking forward to that I think

869
00:40:29,410 --> 00:40:26,720
the Australian skeptics have a top

870
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:29,420
lineup of speakers this year and you'll

871
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:33,050
be able to hear their story and look

872
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:34,970
forward with me to meeting them in

873
00:40:40,210 --> 00:40:37,490
person later on in the year I look

874
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:40,220
forward to meeting people in California

875
00:40:46,210 --> 00:40:43,970
you know only a few weeks at skeptic cow

876
00:40:48,609 --> 00:40:46,220
again links on the show notes in

877
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:48,619
Berkeley that should be great fun I'm

878
00:40:54,910 --> 00:40:51,170
taking part in a quiz show a sceptical

879
00:40:55,870 --> 00:40:54,920
type Japanese type quiz show but I'll be

880
00:40:58,480 --> 00:40:55,880
running around with my microphone

881
00:41:00,520 --> 00:40:58,490
interviewing people and it'd be nice to

882
00:41:03,579 --> 00:41:00,530
see you if you're in the area more

883
00:41:06,690 --> 00:41:03,589
details at the skeptics own web page and

884
00:41:09,339 --> 00:41:06,700
finally for those people in Bend Oregon

885
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:09,349
skeptoid media is arranging for me to

886
00:41:14,050 --> 00:41:12,410
give a talk in Bend Oregon so more

887
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:14,060
details as soon as they come to hand

888
00:41:18,099 --> 00:41:15,770
would keep an eye on skeptics and on TV

889
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:18,109
but I'll be telling you more probably in

890
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:21,770
the next episode but for this week this

891
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:23,930
is Richard Saunders signing off from

892
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:31,190
you've been listening to the skeptic

893
00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:34,110
zone podcast please visit our website at

894
00:41:44,290 --> 00:41:40,800
wwlp.com tax and to access the bat

895
00:41:46,970 --> 00:41:44,300
catalog of episodes going back to 2008

896
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:46,980
you can follow the skeptic zone podcast

897
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:50,250
on twitter at skeptic zone visit our

898
00:41:53,410 --> 00:41:52,530
facebook page or leave a review on

899
00:41:56,090 --> 00:41:53,420
itunes

900
00:41:59,480 --> 00:41:56,100
you can also support the skeptic zone

901
00:42:02,200 --> 00:41:59,490
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

902
00:42:04,580 --> 00:42:02,210
podcast is an independent production

903
00:42:06,710 --> 00:42:04,590
reviews and opinions expressed on the

904
00:42:09,050 --> 00:42:06,720
skeptic zone and not necessarily those

905
00:42:10,860 --> 00:42:09,060
of Australian skeptics or any other